A week or so back, one of the members here posted a question along the lines of: "What do you believe and why do you believe it?" She followed it with something along the lines of: "I would also ask the NON-believers why they don't believe, but i ask that they be careful to do so without belittling believers". Now, i'm not claiming i'm quoting this PERFECTLY, and i'm not taking the hassle needed to go back and get it EXACT, because i don't think that's necessary. She and i discussed what i am about to say, she EXPLICITLY agreed that my objection was reasonable, and she told me that she was going to 'correct it'. I didn't verify her follow up, because i saw no need. By that time it would have taken effort to see if she did, and she struck me as a person of character who would do what she said in that regard. Frankly, it didn't even matter to me if she did, but she earned a few 'respect points' from me by taking my following comments as an honest critique and giving them a fair consideration.
My reaction to that was (also something along the lines of) "Why did you single out the NON-BELIEVERS for an admonition to not disrespect believers, and not explicitly ask the same of the believers"? I note that believers are OFTEN quick to take offense at ANY statement i make that expresses MY beliefs where MY beliefs are the opposite of theirs, yet they never seem to stop to consider that their statements of belief COULD be taken offensively by others if the other was so inclined to do so.
I recently saw a blog post from one of our newer members, Michael Carpenter. Toward the end of the post he added a comment that the contents of the blog were intended for Christians only, though as stated they still appear to me to be more general, but i just let a few comments within it go. He had added that at the end, not explicitly stated it in the beginning, so my initial reaction to some of its contents was less than happy, but with the disclaimer he added later i decided that there was no NECESSITY to complain.
I'm NOT picking on him here… AT ALL.. and i am NOT saying that he was wrong to say what he did. He is FREE to express his opinions here, and i support his right to say things that *i* COULD choose to take as offensive if i was wired that way. As is, i contacted him, told him that i wanted to use some quotes from his post to make a point, and asked his permission to do so. He was QUITE gracious about it, and extended TRUST to me that i would not abuse the permission that he gave. I tip my hat to him for that.
Now, the meat of the matter…
We all have our own beliefs. The various Christians here may disagree about specific doctrines, but they are all similar OVERALL. Expand that grouping to include the more general theists, and you still have the belief in a creator god who watches over them and answers prayers. Expand out from that to the pagans and their variants, and you still have a belief in one or more creator agents and the ability to affect the world via ritual and to interact with spirits. Go the next step and you have the metaphysicists who may not believe in gods or spirits, but who do think we shape reality by our will, etc. etc.
Then you have us atheists. Most of the people in the above groups have NO real notion of what it means to reject the entire package above. We live in a COMPLETELY different mindset than any of them, and it is sometimes FRUSTRATING - but more often AMUSING - to listen to the way that they characterize us. But here's the thing that's at the core of this post: Our beliefs are fundamentally different. We evaluate the very concept of right and wrong from very different views and postulates. We are, by NECESSITY of being true to what each of us believe, not just going to disagree, but hold positions that strike at the very CORE of what the others feel is good or bad about people. What YOU may see as a vice, we may see as a virtue, and vice versa. (pun intended)
When a theist makes statements like "God is X", or "The Goddess does Y" he/she is assuming in that sentence that God(dess) exists, and stating it as an unquestioned truth. That is a COMPLETE negation of my CORE belief. I do not believe in such entities. Am i to be forced to act otherwise and also talk about god(s) as if its(their) existence is a given? In MY view, no such entities exist, and the belief in it(them) comes from a projection of a wish for comfort and spiritual companionship on the part of the person who makes it. That's EXACTLY what psychologists describe as an "Imaginary Friend", and that IS how i see the relationship between people and their assorted 'gods'. If it's disrespectful of ME to express that view, then why is it PERFECTLY fine for the theist to express views that PRESUPPOSE that *i* am the one who is wrong here, and that MY failure to accept the existence of their 'god(s)' indocate a fundamental flaw withim ME?
Now, fair is fair. I wouldn't like being compared to an insecure child if i were a theist hearing someone use that phrase. i DO recognize that i am not PRAISING people who believe when i use this phrase, but… and this is IMPORTANT… as i said: "Fair is fair". I believe it to be the case that your gods, spirit guides, whatever exist ONLY in your imagination, and that you CHOICE to believe in them through faith is a purposeful choice of comfort over truth. I don't INTEND it to be demeaning or belittling when i use it, but it's just NOT fair to expect me to use the word 'god' when i talk as if it existed when THAT is the exact opposite of MY foundational belief. So, at this point any remaining objection can only be based on the correct assertion that my characterization is not ***flattering*** to the believer. But remember, we're talking about 'fairness' here. If i am only allowed to express things that the believer will find flattering, then there's a MAJOR double standard in play.
Michael's post is filled with MULTIPLE comments which are things that he sincerely believes, but which to ME go far beyond just not being flattering to an unbeliever, they are outright INSULTS to this one. Now, i'm NOT suggesting that he should hold, back, renounce his views, tiptoe around worries of offending me or others, or anything of the kind. Just the opposite. My point here is NOT at all that he should hesitate to say things that *i* COULD find as offensive, it's that i need to accept that he believes these things and NOT take them personally or be offended, i.e. just accept that he thinks these things and that's the END of it. I've already LONG done that. And if somebody wants me to view them as MY spiritual peer, they need to extend the same in return.
Let's see a few. His comments are in quotes and bracketed:
***"All people have experienced God"*** Uh, NO, in fact *i* have NEVER experienced any 'god'. If i had, why on earth would i be an atheist? Oh wait i shouldn't ask that because he does have a theory on that, and it's pretty unflattering to me... see later. This statement is presumptuous and an explicit statement that there is a god, that i have experienced it, but that i won't admit it. BONK.
***"there are two more significant things that all of us have experienced in this world that only come from God. Those things being love and goodness"*** Again, presumptuous. I have experienced much goodness and love. I GIVE those things freely to many people. His assertion that they ONLY come from God denies me the belief that they come from each of us.
***"People also know in their heart of hearts that a supernatural force (God) created matter, life, and our own soul."*** I don't know ANYTHING in my heart. My heart pumps my blood. My BRAIN has FULLY analyzed the creationist world view and found it to be severely lacking and self-contradictory. To assert that i somehow 'know' something different than what *i* consciously know is to accuse me of being intellectually dishonest with myself. That's still not OPENLY rude to me, but were getting there now…
The above comments, while dismissing my beliefs, aren't OUTRIGHT unambiguously explicit insults. I could choose to be offended by them, or not, but that could go either way. However, let's go on.
***"The real reason many of us do know God or deny God is that to know Him we would have to give up somethings in our lives that are not of God. We would have to give up our pride that we think we know everything " ** OK, NOW it's getting 'offensive'... if i were to choose to take offense :-). This is an EXPLICIT assault on my personal integrity, implying that the ONLY reason i don't accept the existence of god is because i am selfish and think i "know everything". I don't think ANYTHING of the kind and as it happens my intellectual integrity matters to me EXACTLY as much as his spiritual integrity matters to him. To claim that i reject god because of false intellectual pride is NOT fundamentally different than ME claiming that he BELIEVES in god because of an emotional insecurity that cause him to NEED an imaginary friend.
That's not an isolated comment either. in the same post he follows with: ***"We would have to give up putting all our lust and fleshly desires first in order for us to serve God. This is why many of us do not know God."*** No, and AGAIN it is a complete insult to my integrity to claim that i don't "know god' because i won't stop allowing my 'baser drives' to run my life. *I* don't know god because there's NOTHING THERE to know. He doesn't have to agree with that, and he is FREE to state otherwise, but in turn i am free to state things that HE may not appreciate when *i* explain MY evaluation of why he insists there IS such an entity.
And this isn't just as regards atheists. Statements that dismiss other beliefs can be less broad, but would in turn be potentially offensive to a believer of a different sort. A later comment he made was: ***"It reminds me of the community clergy meetings, where all faiths are represented.*** Really, ALL FAITHS? You have b'hai, and hindus and pagans and eckancar, and voodoo, and who knows what else at your 'community clergy meetings'? I doubt that, as all the ones that i have ever been around for are limited to Christian clergy. Those other people have 'faith', too.
Now please HEAR this next part CLEARLY: I'm NOT dissing Michael here. I'm NOT arguing that he can say this stuff. He believes it. It's nothing radically new, and i'm NOT asserting that he says this stuff JUST to demean or belittle me and others. He says it because he has devoted HIS life to promoting a specific view of reality and these comments are part of the beliefs of that view.
And his comments are RELATIVELY mild compared to some i've heard more than once. My PERSONAL favorite is the times that i am told that "I don't believe in god because i am serving satan." Now, not BELIEVING in the god behind door number 666 anymore than i believe in the god behind door number 3, that's actually laughable to me, but if we're not allowed to express an opinion because it's not flattering to the other person, i'd have to say that being accused of serving the dark force that feels only hate and wants to destroy all goodness in the universe is right up there with as 'unflattering' as it can get.
So, in conclusion, i want to say that NONE of us should expend energy whining about being offended by what any of the rest of us say or think. Michael has actually IMPRESSED me because he appears to me to share MY belief that until the Christian churches …as the saying goes… get the freakin' beam out of their own eyes, it's just plain hypocritical and explicitly NON-Biblical for them to keep focusing their energy on those who aren't part of their church. If i see another post from him where he expresses something that i find non-flattering and he doesn't bother to wrap it in a disclaimer, you won't see me threatening to get the site shut down for harassment in the workplace.
To the extent that i have seen enogh to form an initial impression, Michael appears to me to be a good man, and he sees it as his role in life to preach the message he believes to those who choose to hear it. I'm NOT interested in his theology. I've heard t all before, and i find it lacking. But i respect and support HIS right to practice and preach what HE believes to be true without regard to how someone else will decide to map it to a need to feel persecuted. in turn, i reserve EXACTLY the same right to say things that may be offensive to HIM, or to any of you.
That's the way it is. Thanks for reading, and may your favorite imaginary friend(s) change her/his/its/their divine plan to give you the next thing you wish for. :-)
